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Transcript:

Speaker 0

 

Have you ever heard women say, if my husband were to do this, then I could finally show up like this. Or I can only be more feminine if he fill in the blank. What if all those TikTok videos telling you how men should first change before you can finally be your best self are a scam? What if I told you that you actually have all of the agency to inspire your man to be a leader who is connected, loving, and showing up for you. We all love to be the victim. We love to feel helpless because it means we don't have to take responsibility for how we are showing up and for our situation. In this episode, I'm joined by Kelly Camma, who takes us through her personal journey of being a blue haired man hating lesbian to now being a submissive empowered wife. She teaches what has transformed her life and through her coaching and program supports women in facing their aversions, fears, and traumas with men to recognizing how they may have been shut off from receiving love, receiving relationship, and even being in their femininity. On this little journey, we are going to learn how a woman can express her needs and actually be heard by her partner, and also how to revive what might feel like a hopeless situation. We'll talk about how a woman is just like a peach and why marriage isn't and shouldn't be all about love. Thanks for joining me on Born to Know, the podcast that brings you conversations with experts and thought leaders in every field to peel back the layers of this epic world we live in and see where choice really resides within each of us every day. We are all born to know and to live as our most authentic and liberated selves. Hey, Kelly. Thank you so much for being here with me today. I'm so excited to chat with you. I love what you're up to, and I just wanna jump right in to understanding your arc and how you've arrived at this place of supporting and guiding women in what I think is like a return to their inner knowing. It seems like we've forgotten along the way, and and you're here kind of rekindling that light that's inside all of us. And so, yeah, first of all, I wanna I wanna know how you're doing. I know you just moved. A lot of big changes for you in the last six months, which is super exciting. So, yeah, how are you doing? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Oh, I'm really good. Yeah. We just moved. Me and my husband and I just moved from Bali all the way to Austin. Austin. I've been in Bali for the last four and a half years, and I'm really happy to be back in the US. I grew up outside of Chicago, so it just feels like being home even though I've never lived in Austin. So even though it was a big transition and move, it it also feels very comfortable and and just good and settling to be here. So I'm really just feeling very grateful. Yeah. And thank you for having me. I also wanted to say I I'm excited to to connect with you. I've followed you for a while, and I love what you share about birth and and femininity and all the things. So and I love the way our worlds collide as well. So I'm excited to talk about that today. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. Absolutely. I know. As we were chatting before this conversation, I realized there's actually so many things that, like, I often don't talk about with a lot of people. But I was like, oh, she's she's into that too, and she knows about that too, and it makes so much sense to me. So, yeah, let's jump in. I'm really interested in, like, everyone's hero's journey. And it sounds like from from what I've listened in on with you is that you went through this arc in your process, you know, to where you are today, like so many of us do. But it really for me is like this alchemical story of being in one belief system or being in one framework. And then, I guess, there were elements that inspired you to start to transform and metamorphosize and step into this journey, which is now what you're supporting women with as well. So I'd I'd just love to hear about how you landed where you are now and and what lights you up about what you're doing. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. I'd love to share. It's been quite an arc, and definitely, like, an old version of myself would not believe that I teach about loving men or being in your femininity because that just used to repel me. I'll back up very far, you know, all the way back to my childhood, I can remember just this deep yearning to be in love and be in a relationship. And so much of my life, I just sought that. And I tried to be so many different ways to get the love I was looking for from from boys in school and, yeah, just tried to to be the cool girl, the girl who didn't have any needs. And I got into situationships. And and really for the fir like, when when I look back to, like, high school and college, I was really in that world of being in situationships, not asking for anything, and, and not knowing how to communicate. You know, in my family, the norm was sweeping things under the rug. Love my family so much, right, but didn't learn many healthy relationship skills within within my family. So getting into relationships was just really tough. And I thought that I think I thought that I would find all my answers in relationships. Right? Like, if I was just love, and someone loved me back, everything would be okay. So I was just on this hopeful, full mission to to find that thing. And that led to a lot of heartbreak and and pain. And it got to a point in maybe when I was like eighteen, nineteen, that I was just struggling so much with men and boys before that, that I thought, Oh, well, maybe if I date women, this will all be resolved. It's probably because I'm gay. I just need to date women. I was wrong all along. And there were things that led me to get there as well. Like, it wasn't just a momentary decision. I think I'd always been a little bit more tomboy. So then people would like had asked me if I was gay. So then there was like this culmination of like, well, maybe this is the answer here. Right? 

 

Speaker 0

 

Right. There's like a lot of evidence building up over time. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. So I was like, Okay, let's give it a shot. And so yeah, for from like twenty to twenty five, I only dated women. And I got engaged to a woman. I just thought that was going to be my life. And I really settled into that identity. You know, I shaved my head. I wore like baggy clothes, you know, people would sometimes think I was a man from the back, because I looked so masculine. And that's also where I felt I felt very safe in that, that energy, that role, you know, I remember I lived in Chicago at the time. And, you know, when I shaved my head, people wouldn't catcalling me anymore. I wouldn't be Yeah, like, yeah, I think hit on in the same way, although I got attention in a different way. But it I felt like people saw me as tough. So I felt safe in that. So that was a whole a whole journey within that. But then the truth of my relationship that I was engaged to this woman is that the the dynamics of our relationship were just more toxic than actually I'd ever experienced before. You know? So my answer in my mind of just, oh, I'll just date women and it'll be fine was not true in the end. And I was really suffering in that relationship. And, I was just very passive. And and I just wanted to make her happy. And I thought if I can just make her happy, then the relationship is gonna be good. And there was just, yeah, many other dynamics that didn't work about that. But then underneath that, I I started having dreams about being with men again and just felt this inner desire that I did not want to have that that was, like, leading me back to wanting to be with men, which was so terrifying. Right? Like, ruining my whole identity I just built up over the last five years. Yeah. Just Anyways, my relationship with that woman fell apart just because of our toxic dynamics and also because these feelings I was feeling. And thank God that it did. Thank God we didn't get married. At that point, I just got became humbled enough. I guess maybe that's not even the right word. I think I I got to my own, rock bottom in that moment of being like, I really wanna be in a relationship still. Like, I really want a healthy relationship, and I don't know how. It was just like, I surrender. I do not know the answer. So at that point, when my friends invited me to this retreat that she was holding, and it was all about femininity. Prior to that, I was so resistant about femininity because what I had learned femininity was when I was young was like wearing push up bras and having blonde hair and being pretty. You know, that was kind of Oh, 

 

Speaker 0

 

like a sexualized perception of the woman is what you equated with femininity. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Totally. And and get and it was all about getting the attention of boys. You know? And and so I was like, well, I don't I don't want that. And then yeah. So I just I thought it was, like, just antiquated information that that femininity even existed. And, like, I was just like, no. This is not relevant to me. But I had gotten to that point of surrender where I was like, I'm willing to actually try anything at this point because I just don't know. And so then doing that retreat, and then many others after I realized, like, wow, this is something that I didn't know anything about femininity, and that I really need and want and feel really gravitated towards. And so that just became be be in my journey of of learning how to heal my relationship with men and be in healthy relationships and connect to my femininity in a way that felt, empowered, not passive, not sexualized, all those things. And then, yeah, through that journey, I met my husband. We met about four years ago. And, yeah, got married three years later. And I'm so grateful for what I learned, I mean, for so many reasons, and we'll talk about it today. But even when I look at my relationship with him, I I know that if I didn't know this about the differences between men and women or how to respect a man, our relationship would never have progressed the way that it has. And not just knowing how to respect him, but also know how to use feminine communication to share my needs and my feelings and my desires, our relationship would have a hundred percent fell apart. And so I'm just deeply grateful, and I I'm passionate about this because it's never what I thought I'd teach or do or talk about, and it was exactly what I needed. And I see that a lot of women do want this, but they don't know how to have it. And so I just wanna share what I've learned, and I really like making it practical and and doable as opposed to, like, sometimes I think when we talk about femininity and masculinity, it can be a little, like, ethereal or, you know, not not grounded. And so I I do my best to make it grounded and help women walk that path for themselves. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. I mean, it's it's so true what you're saying because a lot of the women that I come into contact with just in my personal life and the communities that I lead and women that I teach and train, it's like they're burnt out on this, you know, concept of the masculine and the feminine. Right? It's like, oh, well, this person says if I do this or that I feel into this, then I'll get this response. Or if I I guide him to do this, then he'll open me up. And it's like, there's so there's so much, I think, confusion right now, and there's a lot of people talking about like, well, if you just rest in this, then he will rise in that. And I don't know, there's just formulas, right, that I think are leaving women really confused. And a lot of them haven't mastered what I think might be the foundation, the foundational steps of this process, which is a reconnection with themselves. Right? Like you hit a rock bottom moment, which many of us do, not just once, but multiple times. And when we basically like supplicate, we say like, I'd surrender to you. Right? Which I mean, we surrender to God and we say, I'm available to receive whatever I need to receive because I'm done with this. Like, I'm sick of this story. I'm sick of hearing myself in this story, and it's almost like you're on the outside looking in. So we get to that point. And then, right, you received an opportunity to go to this retreat, which started to scratch the surface of perhaps the direction that you you went in. And so, what are these foundational steps that a woman can do before even attempting to engage in a relationship? And if she's already in a relationship, right, many of us wake up one day in marriage and say, something has to change because I feel unsatisfied and I can see my partner is deeply unsatisfied, so I'm gonna take it into my own hands. What is the first thing would you say, that you did or a woman can do that's accessible and it's not about the other person? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. I I love what you said about the the that the journey does start inside. It starts within with connecting to yourself. And I think just to back up for a second because I think it yeah. The world of learning about femininity can be really confusing. And what I like to teach and what's helped me understand it is recognizing how and this is like an analogy for the feminine, is that the the healthy feminine is like a ripe peach. I learned this from one of my teachers, and it's really helpful because it's like the a ripe peach is soft and sweet on the outside. Right? Gentle, soft, sweet on the outside. But then in the middle, there's the pit, which is solid and strong. And, yeah, basically, that's it. And and has wisdom as well, right? The the pit of a of a peach even, right? The wisdom to grow another tree. And the feminine is the same. So on the outside, feminine, it it it can be soft and sweet and and kind and gentle, like those those qualities that are probably automatically associated to the feminine. But then inside, it's so important that we have that internal strength and wisdom and discernment and ability to to voice our needs when it's hard or move through conflict or regulate ourselves that I think sometimes gets lost in the femininity conversation. It's just so important because we actually can't be soft and vulnerable if we don't have internal strength, actually. And so, you know, I think sometimes the world teaches us, you know, not inside this work, but, like, outside when when we're taught to be independent women and not need a man, it kinda teaches us to to only focus on that pit. Like, only focus on the strength and, you know, be strong, and and then that leaves women burnt out. But then sometimes in the community world, it's like we take pit out, and then we just have, like, this mushy soft. It almost gets kinda rotten, like, you know, softness Oh. And passivity also. That that also isn't healthy femininity. So I think it's it's finding that healthy balance where where you can have both is is so and just to give an overview of the way that I see it. Does that make sense? 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. It does. And, you know, I wonder, like, how we cultivate that pit. Right? Because I do come into contact with women who maybe are just all peach. Right? And there's no internal framework, so they often feel maybe exhausted, overrun, don't have a sense of of self. The discernment isn't there, they're fawning all the time, right, trying to please, trying to be loved and liked. And they don't they they even outsource decision making very often and say, I don't even know what I want. I don't even know what I would choose in this situation. I can't even keep track of time. I can't keep appointments. I can't write. It's just this, you know, really, uncontained feminine experience. And so how does the woman strengthen and cultivate that that pit inside the peach and also create her own containment? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. That's a really good question. So I think oftentimes well, there's multiple reasons that that could be missing. I think it could be a lack of knowledge. Like, when I think of myself, I was very much uncontrolled, kind of like this peach without the pit. That was my pattern when I was younger, especially. And there was multiple things missing because there was a lack of knowledge. Like, I didn't have discernment. I didn't know, what boys or men were, like, actually healthy to date. You know? What how to actually communicate. So I think that there can be a lack of, like, knowing. I also didn't didn't know how to keep a calendar. I didn't know how to kinda actually even contain a lot of things in my life. And then also with that, like, a lack of knowledge or there can be a wound underneath where it's like, you know because then there were other times where I did know my needs. I did know that I wanted to be in a relationship with these boys I was in situationships with, but I didn't want to lose love. So I didn't want to be abandoned. And so I had to look at that that internal wound to heal and learn the skills that I was missing to create internal containment. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. I think that that's something that comes up a lot as women say, okay, well, now I'm aware of the wounding. I'm aware that I stay in toxic dynamics because the fear of losing connection, the fear of being abandoned is so much worse. It feels like death. It's so much worse than being in this, you know, stonewalling, silent treatment, tug of war. It's it's so much worse than that. So I'll settle for that toxic dynamic over losing the connection and being alone. Right? So once a woman becomes aware that she's participating in this dynamic, what can she do? Right? And I know, like, in my containers, with the doulas that I train, I talk about reparenting the inner girl. So it's all about rebuilding trust with her, you know. And this is a very kind of niche thing I would say and it's specific to what we talk about. But what would you say to, you know, any woman who's like, okay, I'm aware that there's a wound. I'm aware that my husband triggers it when, you know, he doesn't check-in. He's out, and he says he's gonna call at four, and then it's four thirty. And now, like, you know, I'm feeling surges in my body, and I'm wondering where he is, and I feel disrespected, and I feel like right? The abandonment kicks in. So now that the wound is there, what are some practices to say this is not him? Could be he's in the middle of a call, could be he's still at work, could be that his phone, you know, many things, right? What can a woman do in that situation when she's become aware of the wounds? And now is it's it's on her right to alchemize them? Like, what just some modalities, maybe some ideas? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yep. So as far as looking at healing the wound, one place that we can look that often is connected is our relationship with our dads. I know that one is a big one for me. Right? Because it's like if we don't get the love that we need or want from our dad, then we go out and we look for men who are like our dad or men who aren't like our dad. And we try to get that love, like, unconsciously. And so going right back to the relationship with your dad and seeing what what's in there or if there was any abandonment there or or wounds that that need to be healed there. So yeah. And I think that that process can be unique to to each woman, but that was definitely something that I needed to go through and something that I got to recognize. Like, wow, I am just dating my dad again and again. I'm trying to fix men because I couldn't fix my dad. I'm trying to make him stay because I felt abandoned by him emotionally. And I looked at that. Yeah. Like you said, reparenting the inner the little inner girl. I got to go through the process of meeting that own meeting that need myself. Right? Because when we become adults, it's like, really only we can meet some of those really core needs that, like, our inner children need. Right? And if we're trying to grasp that from other people, it's it's we're never gonna get it in its entirety like we want. And so, yeah, I think inner child work is really important around looking at our relationship with our dad. And then the other thing that I think is important is to recognize, you know, if if you are in a relationship where you're experiencing stonewalling or and you've been passive and, you know, you've got all these dynamics going on that don't feel good that you don't want anymore, it doesn't automatically mean that when you start doing this, like, the relationship is gonna end. I think that can sometimes be the fear. Like, well, I'm not gonna well, I don't wanna start communicating, like, because I don't wanna lose this love. But actually, yeah, I think some relationships might end, and you might discover that that you're not compatible or maybe your partner's not willing. But, I think in many dynamics, the truth is is that when you soften and change and heal, your partner will shift as well. Like, your your rep and you don't do that to, like, manipulate him to change. But but by you changing, you do change the dynamic of the relationship. And likely, your partner wants a better relationship too. So there's just so much so much healing and connection and intimacy that's possible when when you start to develop that internal pit, if that's the part or, like, heal heal this stuff. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. And I would say, very often, what I see is that maybe you see this too because I know you and your husband both do very similar work respectively and, with your own unique approach and perspective. But what I see a lot is that women feel a lot of resentment in their relationships more often than, you know, maybe long term relationships that starts to build where they say, you know, he comes home from work and he gets on his phone or he takes a shower and he gets on the couch and here I am sleeping over the stove and, you know, the the resentment is building. Why does he get to chill and why don't I, you know. And so I asked women like, what are you doing to stoke your own inner fire? What are you doing to turn, you know, the volume up on your own pleasure? And why is this person not allowed to be in their pleasure? Why is it that, you know, because you haven't cultivated that in yourself that they're not allowed to? And so do you see that when women start to feed their own pleasure, that actually ends up attracting their partner to come into their space more, to wanna engage with them more? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. Yeah. And I think when women aren't when women aren't focused on themselves in, like, filling up their own cup, then they end up putting that weight on their partner. And that's a really heavy weight for him to bear. And that's probably gonna cause him to to shrink down or to step away, be like, like, I can't I don't know what's happening. You know? But if you if you really focus on filling up your own cup and, you know, being able to come to your relationship with joy and grace for yourself and for him, that's definitely gonna invite him to to lean in, to show up more, to want to. Because I think men something I learned that I just love and sticks with me always is that men wanna make us happy. Most men wanna make us happy. And when we're not happy, they're like they think they're doing something wrong. So that might cause them to kinda, like, slink away. Right? And so 

 

Speaker 0

 

They don't wanna be rejected. Right? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. Exactly. And and it's so important that, like, when they see us being happy, they're like, oh, amazing. Like, I wanna make her even more happy, you know, or or I'm winning with her. Like, I I'm doing something that's having her be happy. So it invites him to be even more of that. 

 

Speaker 0

 

So would you say, you know, I'll just jump into this now. There are women I work with, you know, with couples in their preconception, fertility phase, or in their pregnancy, or even in their postpartum. And so I come into contact with relationship dynamics and I'm by no means a relationship counselor. But I am doing other types of work with them. And some of them experience really, kind of intense ruptures in their relationship, you know, whether it's infidelity, whether it's, you know, the husband stops saying I love you for whatever reason. Keeps start spending more time at work or she does something to break trust. Can people recover from this? Can relationships recover from this? And if, you know, the woman is going to do the work to heal and change and, you know, she can't expect him to, you know, she can't give him a list of to do's, right, and say, go watch this video, go take this class, you need to fix this, right? What can she do? How can how can they slowly rebuild that trust? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. I think it's definitely possible to to rebuild. And, you know, that's no small thing after something like infidelity. And I would say that's not my forte of of expertise. So I don't know, you know, that's it's not I don't know a ton about that specific journey. But what I'd say is that I always like to bring it back to this analogy of of, there being two sides of the street in a relationship. Right? So there's your side of the street, and then there's his side of the street. And so while it can be really easy, especially if your partner is not showing up for you or you don't have a need met or there is infidelity, it sometimes can be very easy to, like, point to his side of the street and be like, you know, you need to clean this up. These are your problems. It's easier to see his side of the street. Right? But if that doesn't work, as we all know, anyone who's ever tried. You can't fix them. You can't change them. And and when you try it, yeah, it's not not a good dynamic. So what you can do is look at your side of the street. Right? Because we all have a part to play in the dynamic that we have. Right? And that's not to blame at all. Right? But it's actually what I found in that is so much clarity and also empowerment. Like, oh, I'm not a victim to him just spending too much time at work. There's actually something maybe there's something that I've played into to create this dynamic or definitely if not that there's something I can do to help change that. Yeah. So I think always looking at your part. And that doesn't mean that there's not a time when you can also share about something he's done or like an impact he's had on you. But I just always say start start with your spot your part. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. Start with your part. I'm so about self sovereignty, right? Because it's like there's so many self created prisons every day in all facets of life, and this seems to be one of them for many women. It's like, you know, he doesn't he doesn't give me enough. I don't feel seen. I don't feel heard. I don't, you know. So what are these tools for self sovereignty? One of them is looking at your side of the street. What impact are you having? What part are you playing in this dynamic? You know. And if he were to never change, would you still choose him? Right? And what would you do, you know, within your own power to shift things? And so, you know, moving into that, what is another piece to this is that women want to be seen, they wanna be heard. Right? But do they have the capacity to receive? And so I I I I've heard women say I'm so bad at receiving. Right? What does that mean? And how can the woman create an opportunity to receive so that her husband, her man actually has a place to put what he wants into her, you know, pour into her. Right? 

 

Speaker 1

 

No. That's so true. I think it's an incredibly important skill to be able to receive. And, yeah, I think what blocks women from receiving, sometimes it can be a feeling of unworthiness. You know, it's like if someone tried to give you a present. And or someone tried 

 

Speaker 0

 

to I guess that this could be 

 

Speaker 1

 

a better thing. Like, if someone tried to pay you for, like, mowing the lawn, but you didn't mow the lawn, you'd be like, no. That wasn't me. And so it's similar with, like, unworthiness if someone tries to, like, pay you a compliment and you don't feel beautiful or you don't feel like you deserve that, you're gonna push it away. And I think that's the other thing that I've come to understand about men is that they really wanna give. They they're providers, you know? And they wanna provide help, and they wanna, yeah, provide for us in many different ways. And when we don't receive it, they can feel like they're not needed in our life, and men need to be needed. Right? So that's so important. And yeah. So I'm sorry. Did I answer your quest what what's your what's your what what was your question about receiving? 

 

Speaker 0

 

Why would a woman say she's bad at receiving? Because, you know, there are women that say, like, I don't I don't feel that he compliments me enough, or he never buys me a gift, or he never, you know, like they're they're wanting the presents, right? They're wanting the connection. And so for some women, their love language is receiving gifts, you know, it is being seen. Then I wonder, are they even available to receive? Because I do feel that men are always giving in their own way. Right? Like, there's men are seem to be very, more more prone to acts of service, let's say. And so for them, you know, they're they repaired the thing in the kitchen. And so they feel they've they've given something, but she's like, oh, I, you know, I wanna oversee words of affirmation, let's say, and I'm not getting any of that, you know. And so is it a matter, we're talking about tools for self sovereignty for a woman to actually start to look at the things he is doing and realize that this is a love language and can she receive that first? And if she's able to receive that, can then she say, you know, I'd love to be told I'm, you know, I'd love to be told that I look great today. Right? Like I'd let you know or something. Right? Like how can she first open herself up to receptivity and then express the things that she wants without nagging? Right? It seems like that might be a a way to do it. 

 

Speaker 1

 

I love that you said that. Yeah. Because I think that is that's such a big piece is to, you know, recognize where your man is already giving. Right? And that's a piece of respecting him, I think, as a man is is receiving what he is providing. And each man is gonna be providing what he wants to and what he what he can. So that might look different because I think it could be easy to fall into while he's not providing this thing, And I need this. It's like, okay, put that to the side for a moment. We'll get to that later. But what is he providing? Right? Is he changing a light bulb in in the kitchen? Is he taking out the garbage? Is he a really good listener? Every man's gonna have their own way of of providing. Is he providing financially? And learn how to get into a state of of recognizing that and appreciating that. You know, especially when women sometimes aren't getting our needs met, we we we're like, well, I don't wanna appreciate that thing because I'm not having my needs met in this other area. But, like, backwards thinking because recognizing where he's showing up, giving him appreciation, like, speaking appreciation to him is is going to help, yeah, build the bridge to getting that other need met as well. You have to start there with recognizing him and appreciating him. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. Like setting him up for success. Right? And him feeling good and wanting feeling inspired to do more of the things. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. And then the second thing you said about okay, so then what about that need that's not being met? So that's a really good chance to practice feminine communication. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yes. Tell me more about it. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Alright. So feminine communication, if we think back to that peach, it's really important that it has both parts, where it is that internal clarity, that that sense of worth of like, I can have this. And sometimes it can be a journey to get to that, as we said, but just to keep this answer simple. It's like having that in this eternal clarity of like what you want and what you need, and having the strength to communicate that, and then being able to deliver that with respect and with softness. And so what that means, you know, it doesn't mean you need to, like, speak in a soft voice or or even be it doesn't mean you need to be inauthentic. You know, I think maybe sometimes that is what can be understood from that. But that's absolutely what I'm saying. It's it's coming to him with love, with appreciation, and just with a with a desire, not coming to him with resentment and anger. And like, why haven't you done this? 

 

Speaker 0

 

Would you be willing to give an example of like an effective and non effective way to communicate a need? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. Okay. So what might be a need? Would you have 

 

Speaker 0

 

one that's top of mind or 

 

Speaker 1

 

I can come up with a random one? 

 

Speaker 0

 

Oh, I don't know. We could say something like, you know, you've cooked every meal that weekend. Like, you would love, you know, just like for him to do the dishes one of the nights even though it's not typically like your dynamic to do that. Maybe that's the thing. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Okay. Great. So an ineffective way to communicate that would be to say, you never do the dishes. I'm always slaving away in the kitchen. Why are you so lazy? I do everything in this house. Obviously, that isn't on effective. So and and it's like, I can understand where there there could be that feeling of, like, resentment or anger in the relationship. But I have a lot of food analogies, apparently. But, like, I like to think of an onion. Okay? So it's like that's kind of the outer layer of the onion. You might have resentment and anger and, okay, maybe that's valid, you know. But, like, if we peel back the layers of that onion and we find the center thing, there's actually just a tender desire in there. So that's why I really guide women and then, like, oh, yeah. Let's peel back layers. Okay. So resentful. Got it. What what's underneath the resentment? And then we go, go, go until we get to the tender desire. So with that being said, then the effective way to communicate that would be to just share the tender desire, would just be to say, you know, hey, babe. I would really love if you would do the dishes tonight. Are you open to that? And that's it. Share the desire and then ask the question. Because I think the question creates space for him to it's not like a demand. It's it's an invitation. 

 

Speaker 0

 

An invitation. Right. And so what happens if he's like, no, I'm super exhausted. I've been working all day. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. I think that what I'd incur that'd be hard to hear, you know, and I would encourage them to, like, breathe and take a moment to just to maybe allow their nervous system to to take a breath or, like, feel how they're feeling in that. And and, you know, I think a big piece of feminine communication is communicating feelings from a personally responsible place. So I think what I would respond to that is probably first understanding. Right? Understanding, like, yeah, I get that you're really exhausted, and I appreciate even adding appreciation. Like, I appreciate how hard you work. Like, I really I you provide for our family, and I I love that about you. And, you know, then maybe, yeah, it depends on the specific nuance, but it could be like, what, you know, you could say, I I really would just love some help, you know, in the kitchen. I I feel I feel tired as well. What can we do tonight to work together to have this work for both of us? You know, so you can just kind of ask for help and see what he comes up with. How would how may he lead you guys to find a solution that works for both of you? 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. Because he might say, you know what? Let's just go to bed and we'll do it in the morning. Or I'll take care of it in the morning or something like that. Right? There's there's a there are a lot of possibilities. Right? And I would say that if there's a rejection of that invitation when she speaks from that more tender place, that it could be that there's another onion there where it's like there have been so many nagging demands for so long that his system might kinda be in shock from hearing that tender desire and he might be like, no. But then he might be like, well, okay, that was different. Right? So it's it's a work in progress. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Totally. And it takes time to change that dynamic. Yeah. You said it perfectly. Like, if he has that imprint of you're gonna get angry, then you maybe he'll automatically get defensive. So if you could just keep coming to it with with softness and strength of like, oh, I, you know, I I do really need help here, and I'd love your guidance or help, and you can keep coming to him with softness, then that's where long term likely the dynamic and all that communication stuff can change. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. And so this is actually kinda, jumping back to something that I thought of when you were speaking earlier about your your journey and, what happens when we realize one day, like, we don't have a blueprint for healthy relationship. We just, like, we're, you know, we've been, like, adulting for a while, and perhaps we've been married for some time or we're engaged or whatever it is, or we know we had a series of relationships perhaps depending on, you know, where we come from culturally or religiously. But we realize, I don't actually know how to do this. How how can a woman start to learn? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. Well, I think really practically, you can find relationships around you who seem to have some of the things you're looking for. You know, whether that be, I don't know, a coach you might see online or just someone that you have in your immediate or or further out circle, family, friend or something and and really just seeking to learn from them. Asking questions or see or just witnessing like, what is it that they seem to do that that I can learn from or reaching out for some connection or learning from them? I think that that's what I did. Even when I think of that retreat that I went to with my friend, it's two women and one of them is in a an amazing re marriage who I that I've always looked up to. And so I just kept learning from her. I kept learning from her. And then I went over here and I learned from these people who I who I felt inspired by. And so we can't figure it out on our own. You know? And I think that's really important to seek mentorship and learning, and and that could be in a book, a podcast like this as well. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. I mean, there historically, there were, you know, historically, marriage looked very different. Right? Like, we often didn't choose our partner. I mean, up until, what, like, a hundred and fifty years ago, we were not choosing. We were not marrying for love, or compatibility. It's very often a business transaction or what would serve the family in a sense for the most part. And in many parts of the world, it still functions like that. And so we grow up we we're in a time now where we can we have more agency in selecting partnership. And I would say to to a almost to a fault in a sense because now we've kind of gone into this far end of the spectrum where we are looking for connection and relationship, you know, online. And, you know, with various dating apps, not that you can't find a high quality, high value woman or high value man, you know, online. However, it has kind of spawned this, culture of like, well, gonna kind of hop around and I'm not exactly sure what my values are, but I'm just looking for somebody that might have some chemistry with and we kind of align on a few things, you know. And so I know many women and men who, you know, spend years, you know, just kind of hopping from thing to thing without clarity on exactly what they're looking for, you know. And so we're in an interesting time. And, you know, I I I kind of observe this from afar. And I also see that people now resort to things. And I don't know the whole history. Right? I don't know the whole history of of this concept. But there's an entire community of, you know, polyamorous relationships. Right? And that this is the more, like, elevated way to participate in healthy adult relating and, you know, that we need to make space for the man's natural biology, which is to have variety. And if the man just has variety, he will be content with his main partner. And this is the way to, you know, this is the more realistic approach. And so there's so much information now. And to be a young woman or a young man stepping into the time of wanting to commit to long term partnership, like, there's so much, like, information out there that I feel like is is it's almost like a minefield, you know? And so what would you say to that? I I I personally believe that, you know, monogamy is, like, the biggest spiritual boot camp that there is, you know, mostly because it's like having a house of mayor being in a house of mayors all the time. And so, yeah. What what can young people do who are, you know, embarking on this journey? I know I threw a lot at you there. But, yeah. How do we weed through this with discernment? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. No. It's a really it's such a good question. And, you know okay. So even if we look at other cultures or, like, back in the day when spouses were chosen for us and and, it was kinda like a family decision. You know, like, your dad would suss them out and have a, you know, meeting with your mom, and then they'd say, okay. This this works, and and you guys are gonna be together forever. And there's something I think there's something and I'm so glad, you know, it's not like that anymore. I love that we get to choose ourselves and and focus on love and and compatibility. But I think there's something that we can kinda learn from that. And it's this expectation that this is not gonna be easy. We're not always gonna love each other. There is logistical, pieces that are important. Right? You said it was like a business transaction. And and there's a part of marriage and and, I mean, I'm newly married, so I wouldn't say I'm a no expert in marriage. But there's a part of relationships for sure that that that we need to take it into account, like, almost like it is a business transaction. And not only that, it's not definitely not only that, but there's something in that that's wise. Right? Like, really taking into the the account the logistics and the compatibility and what each person wants so that you're not just running off of, like, love. Because it's kinda like the peach where it's, like, all all feminine with no containment. It's chaotic if we're only focusing on how we feel. But then if we're only focusing on what's logistical, then it's, yeah, it's just the pit of the peach. So I think it's really important to to have both. And, yeah, as far as polyamory and and that, I definitely gotten sucked down that that road of think is the most evolved way or that's that's the best way to be. And the more I kinda explored that, like, in my relationship with Matt, there were just little moments that we had. There was, like, this innate sense of, like, no. This does not feel good. I don't like this. And when I first felt that, I was like, oh, okay. I need to work through that. And then and then I recognized, no, I don't actually. I I want monogamy. There's a reason monogamy works. And I can listen to that internal that internal clarity. And I would just say, like, around the biological thing that there's a lot of biological urges that we do not listen to. Right? Like, when I have to pee, for example, and I'm out at the store, I don't just listen to my biological urge and and pee in the middle of the aisle or whatever. Or when you're angry at someone. Right? When we're angry at someone, sometimes there's, like, that urge, that, like, primal urge to, like, hit them, hurt them. You know, listen to that because that doesn't work in, like, society. You know, there's containment to stop us from doing that thing. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Because we have contracts and agreements. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. And those are good. Those are good things. Right? That's, like, what makes the the society work. And so I'd say the big thing is in marriage, like, a man might have that biological urge, but I do think it's his responsibility to to, like, navigate that and and move through that and, yeah, to take responsibility for that piece and not just let that biological urge just, like, run his life. Because that's never gonna well, in my opinion, that's and I think that that's backed up by, like, what we see in, like, what works in society at large. Like, that doesn't work if he's doing that. So yeah. And I think that that's why when I think of, like, finding mentorship or finding people that that you want to listen to for relationship advice, it's really important that you look at, like, the fruits of their relationship. And I know sometimes that can be hard to see on in the Internet or whatever. But if I think of the people that I hear talking about that, like polyamory and, you know, men following their biological urges or being allowed to cheat, and I look at their relationships or their families, I'm like, no, that doesn't sound good. That doesn't sound good for the woman. I'm sure she's not happy with that. And I and and and at the end of the day, I don't want that. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Right. I mean, I I may I don't know what happened. I clicked on a reel on Instagram. And because I watched it, I feel like now I'm being haunted. It's a it's like this woman, and she has three husbands. And, you know, I think she lives in Atlanta. I don't forgot her name. But they all serve a different role. And she said, I am so many women in one body, and, you know, this is the partner that satisfies my, you know, courageous or my adventurous part that likes to travel, and then this is the one that satisfies the intellectual part, and this is the one that satisfies the, you know, the finances. And and I was like and then and then it was just like a cascade effect where I started seeing all of these dynamics, and it was totally alarming to me. Maybe most people are, like, privy to this, but I was just in shock that, you know. And then I remembered, you know, from my wonderful teacher who you know, Umraipani, that everyone has contracts and agreements. And if people are very clear with their contract and their agreement, what they're willing to do, not willing to do, and what they're open to trying, you know, and there's clarity on both ends, then people get into dynamics where everybody is clear. Right? So then it's not cheating. It's, you know, we are both agreeing to this. And I wonder, you know, how long that can really go on, you know, because at the end of the day, women wanna feel safe. And, you know, I I don't know how how safety is sustained in many of these dynamics. It's not I I am not an expert in that in any in any case. But, yeah, I come back to the idea of contracts and agreements. And if, you know, there are certain roles in place and everybody knows, then okay, I guess I guess it could work. And that's me trying to have, you know, compassion and understanding for these types of decisions. But even in monogamous relationship and marriages, a lot of people don't understand the concept of contracts and agreements. Right? 

 

Speaker 1

 

A lot 

 

Speaker 0

 

of people don't even talk about how finances will go because it's uncomfortable. We all have money trauma on some level. So they'd rather avoid the subject than actually have a conversation about what they're willing to, not willing to, and okay with trying. You know? And then, of course, with the monogamy piece, with having children. Some people get into relationship and never discuss that one of them doesn't wanna have children, one of them does because some women think he'll change his mind over time. He'll eventually want, you know, to have a family. Right? And so there's a lot of getting into these committed dynamics on what I call the fumes of hope, you know, that things will be different or it'll get addressed later. Right? So what is this like fear of not addressing, not not getting clear on contracts and agreements, not expressing the things that we need or want? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. Well, this is I think this is where we can get into or definitely where I've gotten into at times confusion about what it means to be feminine. That might not be the tie for everybody, but but I see that a lot. Like, it's, you know, women saying, well, I want him to lead that conversation. I want him to bring that up. I want him to say that he wants marriage, or I want him to to tell me when he's ready for a relationship. Meanwhile, women are just, like, strung along in, like, a situationship or strung along in a relationship that never leads to marriage. And they're just waiting, they're waiting, and they get resentful. And, obviously, that just goes downward from there. And so it's so important that women that we practice. And this, for me at least, this has kinda gone against my, I don't know, my patterns or maybe even, like, my biological urge to be safe. Because my urge to be safe would tell me, do not communicate anything that risks this relationship. Right? But we kinda have to override that in order to have a conscious relationship. Because because listen to that. If you wanna have an unconscious relationship, because it's kinda like your unconscious thoughts are are running you. So if you have a conscious relationship, you you kinda have to overcome that and and be willing to say, hey, I want this. I want marriage. I want kids. And I need to know if you're on the same page as me if we're gonna keep moving forward in this relationship. Right? And you can communicate that with so much love and and respect for him and also, like, strength and and wisdom and clarity. And I think that when we don't do that as women, I mean, we we rob ourselves of a lot, but then we we even rob our partners of a lot. Because in my relationship, there was a time when, you know, when we were dating, he didn't know Matt my husband now my now husband, Matt, he didn't know if he wanted to be in a relationship with me. Right? He kinda wanted to keep taking it slow and seeing how things went and seeing other people. And I got to a point of clarity. And because I'm in this practice, that I'm talking about with you here, I knew I needed to put my foot down and, you know, share that I was one hundred percent sure I wanted to be in a committed relationship and that I actually needed that. Because we had gotten to a level of connection and intimacy, and I was just like, well, I'm really falling in love with him. Like, I need containment, and I am going to stand for that. And so for him, he had to have a whole experience of coming to his yes. And and and what and he's told me this, like, what that's what that had him do was step up. He's like, no woman has ever asked me to do that. And it was so cool because when he did come to his yes, he was two feet in and never wavered, was just so like clear and there and has been like that since since that day. And so by me being clear, it had it it forced him to to step up. Or not forced him. It invited him to step up, which he took the invitation. And and our connection and relationship was so much better for it. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Speaker 1

 

And I know you have a similar don't you have a similar story of that? 

 

Speaker 0

 

Oh, my goodness. Yes. I do, actually. My my my now husband, we went through quite some time of, you know, it was he marriage was on had been on the table, you know, but I think for him, he wasn't, you know, he'd been really burned before, I guess. Let's just put it that way. And so wasn't sure if that was something he wanted to do. And so I took the time we took the time to get to know each other. And then I hit a point where I said, okay. I've, you know, reached my kind of like my internal time limit that I set. And, you know, I approached it with respect and totally from the heart. And I was like, I honor where you are, and this has been like an incredible journey so far. And at no point did I ever feel like I'm gonna, you know, I'm I'm I'm being mishandled or mistreated. I just I just hit a point where I said this is like actually where I'd like my life to go now, and so we're welcome to step up or not. And but there was so much work that I had been doing, you know, internally because I was I'd been divorced four years before. And so in those four years, I took a lot of time to cultivate that pit, let's say, and to build the most important relationship in my life, which is the one with myself, you know. And so, that that was the only way that I was able to arrive at that moment where I was no longer self self betraying in order to keep connection. And I knew, you know, I knew he's an an incredible man, and I knew, like, okay. There it's fifty fifty right now. I'm gonna say this. And he's either gonna be like, alright. Well, I'm gonna go find someone else who's okay with one foot in, one foot out, or he's gonna say, okay. I'm stepping up. So I was prepared for either journey for myself. And, yeah, and then we ended up getting married, and, you know, the rest is history. But it was like I mean, I was, let's just say I couldn't believe that I'd gotten to that point because considering my, you know, my trajectory since, you know, in my in my youth, I don't know that I'd ever drew a line in the sand like that. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. Same. And I just know so many women who have similar stories of like, okay, I drew the line in the sand, I shared what I needed and wanted. And he did step up. And he did want that too. And yeah, it's just so cool. So I the evidence grows and grows. That like this grows 

 

Speaker 0

 

and grows. And I will be honest, I listened to this pastor. His name is RC Blakes. I don't know if you know who he is. He's incredible. And he has a whole program called Queenology. I didn't do the program, but I've listened to that man's every single YouTube video he's ever created. And it was like my one of the soundtracks I had going for four years. And he really, I would say, like, gave me the tools to be accountable. Like, I learned a lot of accountability. I had learned it when I became a mother, you know, but the accountability and communicating when I'm accountable, taking responsibility and radical ownership over my behavior really was supported by him. So I just wanna give him a little shout out, you know. And I'm and I'm not Christian, but I I listen to a lot of different pastors because there's just so much wisdom there. And, you know, anyway, so, yeah, it was the radical responsibility for my side of the street. And, you know, if you're legitimized around what your heart desires, you're legitimized around these values that you have, the person's either gonna come along with you or they're not, you know. And and I'm not talking about compromise. Right? There's there are moments where compromise happens. Right? You have something that you're maybe willing to do or willing to try, and then there's a place to meet in the middle. But there are certain things that we just have, you know, hard stops around and, you know, and it's good. I think it's gonna be different for every woman, right? And every man. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah, I totally agree. That's important too to know. Yeah, this is this is this is like for those big things. I think marriage, commitment, babies, like this is so important to have those lines in the sand. But but for smaller things, yeah, you can find compromise. You can talk through it. Yeah. But I think that there's if you're clear that you want babies in marriage and stuff like that, like, there's no compromise there. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. I mean, I remember the first meeting I ever had like, date I had with my husband, Kareem. We met up and someone had been trying to set us up for like two years even before, but we never met. And we finally met up. And it was like, you know, it felt very much like an interview to me. And I was okay with that. Because yeah, there was a there was an element of getting to know each other. But I was also like, you know, are you down with these five things? And it was like, oh, you know, and I wasn't being like a super assertive. I was being very curious. And and I was really speaking it from the heart. He's like, yeah, these these things matter to me too. You know, and it's like so then he, you know, had wrote out a list of values and things and shared it with me and I'd never done that before. I had just never done that before and it made a really big difference in having a lot of clarity in in in the relationship moving forward, you know. I was not interested in leaving a lot of unknowns, which I did for so long, you know, in past relationships, which leads to a lot of suffering and resentment. Right? Yeah. 

 

Speaker 1

 

I love that you guys did that. And Matt and I did something similar when we were on the brink of getting engaged. We went through the whole list of questions of just future vision, compatibility, kids, you know, just everything, you know, down to down to our future and, like and and it was really needed, really helpful. Right? That's where you almost get to have, like, those business like decisions of, like, are we on the same page? Because we need to know that. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. And that's why I say the dating culture sometimes is a is really can be really toxic right now and teaches us how to do these things. We have to seek out the mentorship. And I find that it's even more challenging for men than it is for women to seek out the mentorship. So in your program, beloved, I'd love you know, you've told me a little bit about it, but it sounds like women who are ready to transform, who are ready to receive, to rest in their femininity, to get a really clear understanding of that are joining your program. And, yeah, tell us a little bit about it. And is it women who are not yet in relationship? Or it's women who are already in relationship? Or it's everyone who is just ready to? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. So it's mostly women in relationship. And there's a few outliers, but I'll talk about that in a second. So basically, it's it's it's made for women who are just ready to soften into their femininity so that they can feel seen and safe and taken care of, which is the desire that so many women have. And inside the program, it's like we're really looking at transforming your part of the relationship, like how you've shown up as a partner, how you can soften, how you can be in devotion, how to how to respect your man, how to communicate in a feminine way. So kinda teaching all these skills that we've talked about today, and then even inviting your partner in for a workshop as well. There's me and my husband's a part of it a little bit to to bring in some of the masculine, bring in the men, so that you guys can grow together. But I think that, what I've discovered on this journey, what I see get and get in other women is that we don't know how important the way that we show up actually is. We don't know how deeply we impact our men by the way we communicate or the way that we respond to how they're providing. And when we can shift those things, actually, in a way that feels better for us too, right, like a way that feels more loving and appreciative and respectful. We can really change the way our man shows up as well. But I think it's important that we don't go into it being like, well, he needs to change, so I guess I'm gonna try this because that's manipulative. That's not gonna work. Because and and it's not a formula. Right? Like, you and I were talking, I think, before we started or at the beginning of this conversation. What's important is that, like, you come to the table. A woman comes to the table, and she's like, okay. I see some of my patterns here. I see where I've been disrespectful or where where where I'm struggling to soften or I have wounds, that that need to be healed, and I wanna change how I show up as a partner. And and when you wholeheartedly go into that, I think it's really beautiful to see the way that the relationship will change so that you can feel seen, safe, and taken care of. Because sometimes, you know, what I see in the culture, sometimes what I see in on TikTok and Instagram or whatever is, like, a lot of blame on the man for the ways he's not showing up, the way he's not seeing her, the way he's not making her feel safe. And and, yes, he totally has his part. But I think if you don't feel seen in a relationship, it's important to look at, okay, where am I not allowing him to see me? If you don't feel safe, the question could be, where am I not expressing my needs? The things that I need to feel safe, you know? Am I even giving him the opportunity to have me feel seen, safe, and taken care of in this relationship? And that's what we really look at transforming inside of Beloved. Yeah. So it's a coaching program. I run it live. And just to give a little bit of logistics, it's three months. And, yeah, I'm running it again in in twenty twenty five, early twenty twenty five. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Amazing. Yeah. We're gonna put the link for the wait list here so that women can check it out. I mean, it's for me, this is so powerful when it comes to self sovereignty, right, and to stepping outside of this victim rhetoric that is so juicy and delicious sometimes, you know, to be in that in that victim space of, like, I don't have to take responsibility for this. Someone else just has to clean it up, and then I'll be fine. Right? And so to really step into that power that there is a way I when I do believe that women have a lot of power. It's not this is not about, you know, inspiring a power struggle. I'm just saying women do have a lot of power in the relationship. The power to alchemize. I mean, that's what we do as women. Right? We have wombs. That's what the womb is. The matrix is a space for alchemy. You give a woman some ingredients, she makes a meal. You give a woman some paints and a canvas, she creates a painting. Right? The women are always alchemizing. And so when women know that if they have these tools, they can then apply them to what is the home, the relationship, you know, what she's created with the man, things will start to transform. And I I don't know how we got into this place of, like, if he just did that, then I would be able to be in my feminine. Right? I've I've even had, you know, women in my life say that. We're like, if he were to just, you know, make all the plans, then, like, I would be able to soften and stop feeling so, you know, the need to be assertive. And I'm like, I don't know if it that doesn't feel in my body like it works that way. And so this for me is a much more empowering story. Right? Is that I can shift. Right? And if we do all these things to shift and we put this in practice and maybe we're we're hitting a wall, then maybe at that point we see that there is actually some sort of lack of compatibility. But sounds like very often this works. It really does work even in a situation that might seem totally hopeless, you know? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. Completely. Completely. And and I think that there there is some truth to yeah. If he just showed up a different way, I could show up a different way. There's truth in that, you know, and I really like the analogy of partner dance. So, you know, like doing ballroom or tango or something and or salsa. And if you've ever danced with someone who's really good at salsa or tango, it can be really easy to follow. Right? Because he's leading, and you're following a partner dance. And and I know for me, I so I I used to dance a lot and, like, take salsa classes. And when I dance with the teacher, it'd be so easy. You know, I all of a sudden, like, 

 

Speaker 0

 

moves I didn't know I could do, and 

 

Speaker 1

 

he was dipping me. And it was so easy to just so to surrender. Right? The comparison is, like, it's so easy to be my feminine because he's he's leading really well. You know? But I think the other way around and, actually, I did learn this from Omar Pani as well, like the other way is true too. If a woman's really good at following his lead, allowing him to lead and and trusting his leadership, she can inspire him to be an even better leader. Right? Because because if we're always relating to it like, well, if he was just better, then I could be more surrendered. Okay. There might be truth in that. But as long as you think that you're gonna be in a victim state and it's not gonna help your relationship. So really what was empowering what actually works is to be like, okay, so how can I learn my dance part better? How can I be a better follower? How can I be more my femininity? And in that, invite him into, yeah, like being a better leader. And it and that's what I found again and again. It really does work. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. It really does work. And it's I've I've done some I went to one of Ohm's group seminars in Mexico, and I remember it was mostly couples. I went with my my best friend, Kelly, and then everybody else was a bunch of couples. And I remember a lot of the women, you know, when they shared at the you know, in the very early stages of the seminar said, you know, I just feel like if he could con if he could hold me more, I'd be able to soften. Right? If he could just step up more, I'd be able to soften. And a lot of these couples have been together for, you know, twenty years, almost, eighteen years. And I remember him saying, you just like, one of the he's like, let's just first learn how to touch each other, you know, first. Like, let's first learn how to touch each other. And I remember just sitting across, you know, we were partnered and I mean, Kelly and I were partnered and then everybody else was with their partner. But just saying, like, asking, how would you like to be touched? And the receiving and the person on the receiving end is like, I don't know. Just, like, do whatever do whatever. Right? So it's like the woman's like, just do whatever. And then, Ohm's like, no. Be specific. What would feel good? So it's like the woman doesn't even really know how she wants it or what it, you know, what it feels like. But she knows that something has to shift, and she's expecting him to read her mind, or she's expecting the man to have all the answers and she believes he's just choosing not to do it, but she's never actually shown him. You know? And so that was a that was a huge breakthrough for me. It also goes back to Betty Martin's wheel of consent. And, you know, in doing the bossy massage, for example, where, you know, you're holding your partner's hand, it's a very similar exercise. And it's like, first, get to the basics of getting clear on what it is that you want, and then set him up for success. And I think it's just an important formula that we forget because we're kind of sitting there, many of us, with our arms crossed saying, well, once he shows up like this, then I'll be able to, you know, x y z. And so it's kind of like a standoff. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. Or then we're even going to comparison like, oh, well, my ax, he knew how to touch me. And I didn't have to ask. And Yeah. Talk about a way to just chop your 

 

Speaker 0

 

It's a big one. I mean, it's just it's it's a big one. I you know, there's men who are very verbal and, you know, they text I love you five times a day, and they're communicating and, you know, and then in other ways, you know, around the home, maybe they're not showing up a certain way, you know. And it's like there's and then the the current partner is showing up around the home in a certain way and never verbalizes, you know, his love. Right? And so it's like we could compare or we could see what we're working with and, again, try to set them up for success. It's not it just many of us don't have the brew blueprint for healthy relating. So if we can learn together, but I think every woman has the capacity to receive and every man can his hero gene can be inspired. Right? As Lord Doyle would say, his hero gene can be inspired by making some shifts. 

 

Speaker 1

 

And I think it comes back to one last thing I wanna say about that is it comes back to that phrase of he should just know that. Right? That phrase is just a total relationship killer and and man killer, I think, too. And and and then it's an easy out of, like, well, he should just know that I shouldn't have to communicate that. He should just know that I shouldn't have to share my desire. And and I'm not I don't think women do it with any, like, bad intent. It it is really uncomfortable to have to share the desire or or have to say, you know, I'd really love it if you told me I look beautiful today. It's so vulnerable. It's so tender to to, one, like, do the inner excavate excavation to find those desires or feelings and then to reveal them. You know? And I think that that's where relationship just gets to be such a personal growth container. It's so power. Yeah. All your stuff's gonna come. 

 

Speaker 0

 

What does a woman do when she has an emotion, you know, she expresses an emotion and her partner says, babe, don't be so dramatic. You're too much sometimes. And she's simply like saying like, I would love I would love to be held or I would love a kiss. And it's like, what it like, I I hear that response, you know, I've heard that response, and I I have friends who've heard that response, you know. What what happens when you're with someone who is open seemingly open in so many ways, but when it comes to receiving expression like that, it's like it kind of fries their system and they don't even know how to respond. So something that a man can eventually cultivate with a woman's consistent expression or is it something that's like, that's just off in a man? 

 

Speaker 1

 

So I think for the most part, it is something that a man can cultivate. And I think, yeah, a truth of a relationship is that you guys are going to grow together. You know, your partner is not gonna know how to meet all your needs. You're not gonna know how to meet all your partner's meet needs. But as long as you have two willing partners, you guys can grow together and learn how to meet your needs. So I think it's really it's really possible. And I would say that if well, the first thing to be aware of is when you're communicating your feelings or needs to to be able to communicate it in a feminine way. And what I mean by that, there's a couple there's, like, different elements of that. But one piece is being able to take personal responsibility for how you feel. So not using phrases like you made me feel or, you know, or or communicating with resentment, like, kinda how we were talking about earlier. Like, you never give me hugs. Like, things like that are going to put your partner into defense mode because you because you're blaming. So if you can take personal responsibility and just share whole openheartedly how you feel, that's ideal. But then to speak to what you said, sometimes it it might be a lot for a man's system. Different men respond to that differently. And and and maybe it'll take some time for him to get there. But if he responds in a way like, oh, you're too much, I would just say kinda go back to that same practice again of, like, doing the inner cultivation of that moment of, like, how did how do you how do you feel hearing him say that? If you feel sad, see hearing him say that, share that with him. Oh, I feel sad that hearing you say that, you know, this is something that that feels like a a a need for me in this relationship. You know, just like lovingly and from a place of loving yourself. And it can you because if a man doesn't respond, well, it could be so easy to then wanna go into attack mode yourself. But if you can keep meeting him with softness and that internal strength, that's where, yeah, you can change the relationship. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. Sometimes sometimes they never learn. Right? Sometimes emotions were not welcome in their home growing up and nobody was able to hold their emotions. Let's say, like, a caregiver wasn't able to presence with them when they were having emotions or it was like, go to your room, come back when you're calm. Right? So there's never space for that emotional holding. So sometimes when their woman is like having an expression, even if it's like minor, like, you know, just a few tears or like even tears of happiness, they have not they're not sure what to do with that, you know? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. And so I would say make it easy for him to win with you. Right? Like, try to set him up to win. It's like, oh, when when you know, this is where you kinda have conversations of like, when I'm crying or like, I just need a hug. I know Matt and I have conversations about that too. Like, over time, you just have conversations kinda like what you need and and all of that stuff so that he can actually win win with you and know how to navigate those situations that maybe he didn't grow up, like, automatically looking. 

 

Speaker 0

 

And I and I think I believe it's effective to express those strategies. I call it a strategy. Right? Like, when I'm crying, I'd love for you to just hold me. You don't have to say anything. You don't have to solve the problem. You don't have to make me stop crying. Just the touch is actually would be great. So, like, that's maybe a strategy or an approach to express those when there isn't charge. That's a big thing. Right? So it's like share that in a time where there is connection is seems to be more effective. 

 

Speaker 1

 

I love that totally when there's that charge. And there's a really great book called Love and Respect. I can't remember exactly who who wrote it in this moment. Love and Respect. Giving him the respect he needs and the love she deserves or something. I'm not sure. Are you looking at that, Beyelan? Yeah. But the point of that book or that one of the points of the book that was really helpful for me is recognizing where men's automatic is not necessarily to be soft and loving in the way that women need. Same way that woman's automatic women's automatic is not necessarily to be respectful in the way that men need. So same way that we need to learn how to be respectful in the way men need, men also need to learn how to kinda soften and be loving in the way that that we need. So I know my relationship, like, that's automatic sometimes can be to be to be blunt or to say no. And it then it's my and sometimes that rattles me, and I I love I also love that about him. Right? That's, like, his masculinity that he brings in. I really do appreciate that. And then sometimes it does hurt my feelings. And so then it's my responsibility to, like, communicate that and let him know that that that hurt my feelings. And I'd love it if he was a little more gentle at his communication. Like, is he willing to do that? You know? And that's really helped because then he learns how to love me, and I learn how to love him. And we have to give each other those codes. Otherwise, we don't know. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have to give each other those codes. Absolutely. I think that's a big piece, the respect piece. A lot of girls can grow up also not I mean, personally, not saying, you know, women respect men. Or even, like, there's this phrase, and I hear this a lot. I have a girlfriend, like, we we both heard similar things growing up, and it was like, they're always gonna do something to you. There's always gonna be a secret. Always be prepared for the worst. Have a, you know, secret bank account that he doesn't know about, because at any moment, your life could be flipped upside down. Right? There's like trauma in the lineage, in many lineages, and those those messages are, if not completely, you know, explicitly communicated, there's like this undertone that's being communicated as we watch our mothers, you know, interact with our fathers and the women, the aunts and things like that in our family. We get this we download this information. Right? And so to unlearn that and to say, it's possible to be safe and respected, and it's possible to have open communication. It's possible that I could be taken care of, and it's possible that everything actually could work out. Right? And to respect the man in the process. Right? Because we don't realize that having that story in the unconscious running does produce a lot of disrespect towards the man, and scrutiny, and suspicion, and all kinds of things, you know. And most women don't even know they're doing it. Right? And so what is like a way that a woman can cultivate respect for a man? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. Well, firstly, I just wanna and I get comments like that under some of my videos, you know, like women sharing, like, I was feminine in my relationship, and still, like, he cheated on me, or still I was left with the baby. And I'm I personally am so sorry for any woman who has experienced that. That's so painful. And it's not and and I don't share any of this to for women to overtake responsibility for their relationship. You know, the the your partner has his own part, and and he's gonna come with his own patterns and traumas and all the rest of that. And and I think really though, like you said, with that lineage of trauma, that lineage of fear that we get towards men, we come into relationships in our unhealthy femininity. Right? And then we're right back to that peach where it's like either we're not communicating our needs, and I call that the collapsed feminine, where it's like we're we're collapsed in and out ourselves. We're not sharing our needs. We don't know our worth. We're not we're often not taking personal responsibility there either. But the other side is the shielded feminine, where it's like, you're gonna betray me, so I'm gonna be on guard. I'm not gonna let you see my next move. I'm not gonna show you my heart because I need to be protected here. The best bet that we have to have healthy relationships that that last is having that that that softness, right, that ability to to reveal those fears even in your relationship. Like, oh my gosh. I do have this lineage of, you know, I saw my my dad cheat on my mom, and I'm really scared in this relationship. And and communicating that with your partner, like, letting him in so that he can help, so that he can show up for you, and so that you're not just, like, on this secret mission to to to hide from him because because because that's just gonna breed more disconnection in your relationship. You know? And and I just agree with what you said. I think it's so possible. And, obviously, you know, some people comment, like, wait until you're married for twenty years. Like, I know that I have so much more to learn, and I'm early on my journey as well. And, yeah, but but what I've seen, and that's why I have mentors who've been in relationships longer than me as well. So, yeah, what I've seen is that there is there's there's truth, you just got to keep leaning in and showing your heart and asking for what you want. And, and, and also not expecting the worst of your partner. Right? Like expecting expecting the best, like letting knowing that he does love you, he does care for you. He's not gonna be perfect, just as you won't either. But, yeah, giving some grace to the messiness of relationship as well. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Yeah. And it is a boot camp. You know, it comes with a lot of of pleasure and joy and connection. But there's also another element of that because you're just faced with with yourself very often. And and I feel like it's quite liberating. It can be quite liberating to be in a conscious relationship where you're working towards common goals with the other person and you're also nurturing yourself. 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. And one one more thing I'd love to say about that is is I just remember to bring it back to my original story. Like I just remember throughout my life, you know, when I was really young, I really wanted love. And then when I got older and hurt, I was like, I don't even think that's possible. My parents went through a divorce too. So just seeing that in my house, I I just kinda thought that that wasn't that wasn't possible. And then as I started to do my healing, as I started to take personal responsibility for my life and and connect to my femininity, heal my relationship with men, like all those pieces, and then met this this man who I'm in a relationship with now. I'm so grateful to to know that it is possible to have a loving relationship where we get to communicate and where we we love each other and where we both lean in and where it's imperfect. You know, it's messy. Sometimes we are triggered and get into fights. And and even that, I'm like, wow, because we can get in fights and then we can come back and apologize, and then get through to the other side and be even closer. So, yeah, I just I guess maybe a younger version of me didn't need to hear, like, it actually is possible if you do your work and have discernment, especially if you're dating. And and, yeah, if you really lean in, you can have the love that that you want. That maybe isn't common, but it is possible. 

 

Speaker 0

 

Right. I would say it isn't common, but it is possible. And it does take perseverance and really cultivating that relationship with with oneself, first and foremost. Yeah. Oh, Kelly. I I feel like I can just keep talking to you all day, and I just realized, like, we have been chatting for quite a while. And and it's so it's just so wonderful too and refreshing to to talk to you and to hear all of this and to hear a personal story. I mean, I often believe that the arcs we go through in life lead us to to doing God's work, you know, and and supporting women through their process. You know, it's it's really remarkable. So thank you so much for spending morning with me. And, yeah, is there anything that you'd like to close the conversation with? Any any tips? Any three action steps that you wanna leave for inspiration? 

 

Speaker 1

 

Yeah. You know, I think one of the best whether you fall more on the end of, like, being collapsed or shielded, you know, on this kind of scale of unhealthy femininity, It's like one of the most powerful things I think we can do as women is just reveal our hearts to our partner. Right? Whether there's sadness or fear or even resentment in there, that it's important to to stop hiding those things and start showing them, like, needs and feeling or needs and and wants as well. And I think that that's a really significant step towards being more in our healthy femininity and not being passive and and getting to be the the women that we really I mean, at least, yeah, the women I work with and for me, like the women 

 

Speaker 0

 

that we aspire to be. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was so fun to talk.